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nbrs6121
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Just so that I don't forget

Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:18 am

I'm posting this hear just as a reminder of things I know we've changed that aren't in the core rule books. Since we take a little time between leveling characters, we sometimes forget these. If you remember any others, please post them so that we can have a good list to look over when we have to do this again.

Iterative attacks: You gain new attacks when your BAB is divisible by 5. When your BAB reaches +10, you would have three attacks at +10/+5/+0. At +15, you have four attacks. At +20, you gain your fifth and final attack.

Skill points: Fighters have 4+Int skills per level, instead of 2+Int, as listed in the book.

Masterwork Items: MW weapons cost 10x a normal weapon (up to +300 gold), all other MW items cost 5x a normal item (up to +150 gold)
Last edited by nbrs6121 on Wed May 11, 2011 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Just so that I don't forget

Wed May 11, 2011 8:45 pm

Suggestion: Changing a feat prerequisite for Whirlwind Attack (even though it's not a feat we use often). The current prereqs for it require lots and lots of things that have nothing to do with what Whirlwind Attack does. Currently it requires Int 13, Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise and BAB +4 in order to make a single attack at your highest attack bonus to each target within reach.

Very similar feats to Whirlwind Attack are actually Cleave and Great Cleave, which allow you to make attacks at additional adjacent foes. So, my suggestion is to change the prerequisites of Whirlwind Attack to "Str 13, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave". Thoughts? Opinions?

Also, I suspect that I'll edit the primary post when we agree on houserules we are implementing.
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Re: Just so that I don't forget

Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:34 pm

Suggested houserules for future games. Thoughts?

Tiny creatures with reach weapons have Reach 5 but cannot attack in their own square. Whips triple natural reach, and give Tiny creatures Reach 10.

Vital Strike is compatible with the single attack from charges, spring attacks and similar abilities.

Aid Another scales with BAB/Skill. +2 up to 5, +3 for 6-10, +4 for 11-15, +5 for 16-20. Maximum of 2 Aid Another per attempt.

Weapon focus et al. work on weapon groups and not just singular weapon types.
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Re: Just so that I don't forget

Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:29 am

I'd like to start by saying that I reserve the right to change my answers if there's some powergaming angle that I'm just not seeing yet.
Tiny creatures with reach weapons have Reach 5 but cannot attack in their own square. Whips triple natural reach, and give Tiny creatures Reach 10.
I could see this.
Vital Strike is compatible with the single attack from charges, spring attacks and similar abilities.
Not too fond of this one. Seems like an easy way to build a low-level spiker.
Aid Another scales with BAB/Skill. +2 up to 5, +3 for 6-10, +4 for 11-15, +5 for 16-20. Maximum of 2 Aid Another per attempt.
This is OK, but do we even really use 'aid another' at higher levels?
Weapon focus et al. work on weapon groups and not just singular weapon types.
Yes, definitely yes.
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Re: Just so that I don't forget

Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:11 pm

The reason for Vital Strike working with charges and spring attacks is to make it so that mobile builds don't automatically suck. Many of the Paizo developers play it that way as a houserule (as confirmed by James Jacobs in the "Ask James" thread on the Paizo board). "Low level" in this case is level 6, as Vital Strike requires BAB +6 to take, and then you have to be a fighter. For everyone else, it's level 7. Vital Strike is a weaker option than full attacking, as you only add extra damage dice from the weapon (not special properties or static modifiers). So a vital strike from a +1 greatsword from a character with 20 strength would do 4d6 +8. A full attack, if both hit, would do 4d6 +16. Vital strike also has a lower damage potential, since it's all or nothing and it has a lower maximum damage. Yes, it's at your highest attack bonus, but rolling a miss on that attack means no damage at all, rather than the potential of some damage with a second (third, fourth or even fifth) swing.

Vital Strike was a chain of feats meant to remove the "stand and trade hits" syndrome of 3.5 melee but, because it requires a standard action to use, doesn't work with the other abilities that are supposed to also negate the "stand and trade hits" syndrome. It's a relatively common houserule on the boards, and one I personally like. I very much like the idea of playing a mobile skirmisher, but the rules make that concept very un-optimal.

A lot of these houserules are supposed to shore up otherwise weak options to make them viable at higher levels. Making Vital Strike not objectively worse than full attacking is the goal. Same with modifying Aid Other. We never use it at high level because it's pointless at high levels. However, if it was more than just a static +2, it might show up more often. I know there are rounds where some of us have said "well, I can't do anything useful, so I'll just skip my turn". These are rounds where we should be using "aid other". We can't be directly helpful, but we can make it so that someone who is doing well can be made to shine.
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Re: Just so that I don't forget

Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:06 pm

Is there a way to full attack on a charge besides the pounce ability that I'm using? Honestly, I would support rolling that back after the GC. It's a combination of 3.5 and Pathfinder abilities, and is probably a little broken.
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Re: Just so that I don't forget

Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:32 am

Barbarians can get Pounce at level 10 with the Beast Totem, Greater rage ability. Two-Weapon Warriors can make a pair of attacks after a move action at level 9. Druids with the Plains domain can start doing it at level 6 (a limited number of times per day); other druids can pounce from level 6 while wildshaped into something with Pounce for hours per level. Several animal companions (available to druids, rangers, cavaliers, clerics, inquisitors and sorcerers) get pounce. Anyone who can cast Beast Shape II (wizards, sorcerers and alchemists, some witches and clerics) can do the same as the druid to get pounce for minutes per level. A summoner's eidolon can do it out of the box (1 point evolution on a quadruped base form). Any catfolk full BAB character can do so at level 10, but only with claw attacks. I'm sure there are others. Those are just the ones I am aware of.

EDIT:I also found this list, which adds a few more.
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Re: Just so that I don't forget

Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:19 pm

Pounce at level 10 with the Beast Totem -- Natural weapon, 1d8

Two-Weapon Warriors can make a pair of attacks after a move action at level 9 -- Two single-handed weapons, with penalties. Does not increase when the fighter gets extra attacks.

Druids with the Plains domain can start doing it at level 6 (a limited number of times per day) -- Natural weapons only? It doesn't say... Limited to number of times per day.

Wildshaped druid into something with Pounce for hours per level -- Natural weapons

Several animal companions (available to druids, rangers, cavaliers, clerics, inquisitors and sorcerers) get pounce -- Natural weapons on an animal companion at not as high of level as the PC.

Beast Shape II (wizards, sorcerers and alchemists, some witches and clerics) -- Natural weapons

A summoner's eidolon can do it out of the box (1 point evolution on a quadruped base form) -- Natural weapon; summoners suck.

Any catfolk full BAB character can do so at level 10, but only with claw attacks -- Natural weapon; you're playing a catperson.
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Re: Just so that I don't forget

Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:09 pm

Pounce does not preclude using weapons. The pounce provided by Beast Totem, Greater does not specify that it only works with natural attacks. The catfolk feat, for example, does specify natural attacks only. Plains druids get pounce, no limitation on what to use it with.

All the things that turn into stuff with natural attacks are actually a little more fearsome than a normal weapon user. Every natural attack is taken either at full attack bonus or full attack bonus -5. A lion, for example, gets 2 claw attacks, a bite attack and a pair of rake attacks all at its full bonus. Eidolons can also wield manufactured weapons with their pounce ability (and can have a dozen or so arms, if you wanted to pay for that many longswords).

Titan Mauler Barbarian 2/Two Weapon Warrior Fighter X can dual wield greatswords if he wanted.

I also forgot about Mounted Skirmisher which lets you take a full attack if your mount moves less than its speed. With movement speeds of up to 120 feet, and no preclusion on charging, Mounted Skirmisher is an integral part of the new ubercharger build (called RAGELANCEPOUNCE).

What I'm saying is that pounce isn't, in and of itself, overpowered. There are far too many ways to get it for it to not be basically an integral part of high level play. What is actually overpowered about your sword is that it's free. The same as everyone else's legacy item. If you'd had to spend money on your sword to get it to do what it does, you'd have other glaring weaknesses. Had you covered up your glaring weaknesses, your sword wouldn't be that awesome. Basically, you picked one of the most powerful melee combinations (second only to AM BARBARIAN, RAGELANCEPOUNCE and beastmorph vivsectionist alchemist) with the statistically best melee weapon and focused heavily on it. At high level, you can one-shot some relatively lower leveled foes; this is as it should be.

The three casters all seemed to opt for relatively tame builds, but we could very easily have been shutting down whole encounters with our standard actions if we tried (and had the information necessary to prep). Killing a single foe each round is perfectly fine by me in those circumstances. I am somewhat of the opinion that, by 10th to 14th level, all melee-focused classes should have a way to do more than a single basic attack with movement.
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