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nbrs6121
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Tarry Demodand

Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:49 pm

So, the consensus on the Paizo boards is that FoM would not have prevented the weapon sticking to the creature. However, on your turn, you would have been able to automatically succeed on the grapple check to remove it. So... yeah. Still sucks for weapon users, but FoM makes it slightly better.

As I said afterwards, part of it sucking was me not doing my job as a buffer. I was focused on removing the bad guys (not my job) instead of making it easier for you guys to remove the bad guys (my actual job). So, apologies.
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Re: Tarry Demodand

Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:17 pm

I would've been fine with FoM giving me a free retrieval. My whole point was that there was no effective way to fight it in melee combat. Being able to retrieve my weapon is a band-aid, I still wish there was a sure-fire way to bypass this property, though. With the save it had, I was going to get my sword stuck 1 out of every 4 hits. Which is about once a round. Monsters might have special properties, but there's always a way around it. DR lets you use specific weapon types to bypass it, and we've found a spell to bypass the problem with incorporeal creatures which DON'T EVEN HAVE A BODY. This is the only time I can think of that there's not a way to specifically bypass a monster's special property.
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Re: Tarry Demodand

Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:41 pm

DR/- exists. Immunity to magic exists (on the golems we fought in that exact battle actually). Immunity to elements exist.

The way around the first is to not use weapons, or just shrug off that first 15 points of damage. The answer to the second is "buff the fighters". The answer to the third is "don't use that element".

The answer to the Tarry Demodand is "use ranged weapons or magic". Honestly, it's a CR 18 denizen of the Abyss. It should be difficult to deal with.

However, as mentioned, I could have done more to help you bypass it. I could have cast Grease on your weapon, giving you a +4 to the save. I could have prepared Cat's Grace, since you don't have a dex boost. Anything that boosted your attack rolls would have helped you with the grapple check to remove your weapon (which, admittedly, should have auto-succeeded).

However, it's sort of like me complaining that something targeted my weaknesses. "What do you mean I got hit with a greater dispell magic and now my armor is turned off for 1d4 rounds? But I lose pretty much everything when that happens!" "Wait, you mean it's a golem, so all my spells do jack against it?" "Polar ray? Crap. Now I can't move." "Ability drain... charisma? Look who's unconscious now." "My... AC? Uh... 18. Hit points? 130. That means I'm dead, right?" "Anti-magic fields! S***!" I mean, I was literally useless for Clay's entire adventure.

You can't one-shot a single critter? I'm sorry, but you can't always be the best in every combat. If every combat was just a cakewalk, then why are we playing? I personally like being challenged. You do mention carrying a ranged weapon, which is the resolution to the Adhering quality for weapon users. You didn't spend money on your backup weapon? Hrm. I guess you know where to spend some of next level's wealth then.
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Re: Tarry Demodand

Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:19 pm

You can't one-shot a single critter? I'm sorry, but you can't always be the best in every combat. If every combat was just a cakewalk, then why are we playing? I personally like being challenged. You do mention carrying a ranged weapon, which is the resolution to the Adhering quality for weapon users. You didn't spend money on your backup weapon? Hrm. I guess you know where to spend some of next level's wealth then.
This isn't about being the best in every single combat. It's about my character being shut down for an entire combat and there not being a way around it besides "abandon your sword, and attack it at range". The concept of being challenged implies that there's actually a way to win against it. Not just 'run away, and plink it with arrows for 10 rounds'. Not to mention that if I would've switched to a backup weapon, I would've lost Kath's Honor to a different dimension. I would've rather fought a dragon 5 levels higher than us than that Demodad, because at least I get a fighting chance. I'm glad I bought FoM, and I wish it would've worked in that fight. Maybe that's the best I could hope for, but it still would mean that it's a standard action every time I pull my sword out, right? So I only get to attack every other round? I really wish it would have been better worded. It's too powerful of a property to be so vague about what works and doesn't work on it.

I'm sorry if there are specific circumstances that take away your spellcasting abilities. And I know that sucks. Melee already has the specific drawback that you're in combat with these things, and are taking damage nearly every single round. Your attacks are sophisticated and based on ancient universal powers and study. I can see it not working sometimes. My are brutish, and based on shoving a sharp piece of metal into something over and over again until either it or I die. When yours does work, it completely changes the combat. Mine mostly just kills a monster.

Not sure why this thread made you so defensive. Were you raised by Demodands?
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Re: Tarry Demodand

Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:40 pm

I'm just sort of getting tired of the "What? My specific schtick doesn't work in this one instance? *huff* That's not fair." thing that seems to be becoming rather common with all of us. Hell, I even did it all through Clay's campaign (which I really ought to apologize for.) We each picked specific things that have specific drawbacks. You have things that mitigate those drawbacks to an extent, and I have things that do the same for me. But we still have to realize that there are some things we just aren't supposed to be able to get around.

Mind you, the things that screw me aren't being used very often, which is not fair. I should be targeted by magic users much more often. The fighter-y types should charge past you and try to stab me. I have yet to see anyone build an archer baddie to turn the backline squishies into pin cushions. My weaknesses aren't being exploited, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I've been trying to encourage more spellcasters and ranged attacks, but they are more complicated to run than melee minions, so they don't see much play. Melee minions (especially ones that don't fly) are zero threat to me.

In any case, I personally prefer the wording of the Tarry Demodand's Adhesion ability to the Aderer's, which is just a strength check. At least with the demodand you add your BAB and attack bonuses to the roll (and grapple feats, if you took them). With the Adherer, it's just d20 + Str mod, and FoM wouldn't even be applicable. On top of that, the DC 23 Ref save is actually low for a primary ability.
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Re: Tarry Demodand

Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:48 pm

Found another issue with it:
Adhesion (Ex)

A creature striking a tarry demodand with a manufactured weapon must make a DC 23 Reflex save; failure means the weapon sticks to the demodand and cannot be used to make attacks until freed. Freeing a stuck weapon requires a successful grapple check. This adhesion grants a +4 racial bonus to CMD against disarm attempts.
Emphasis mine. So, you're telling me that if we had a monk in our party that was hitting it with his fists, that he wouldn't have to make these saves? And what counts as a manufactured weapon? If I hit it with a rock or a stick, I wouldn't have to make the save either?

Also, I assume this is you. The reply seemed to indicate that FoM wouldn't do anything, because I would've started the grapple. Even though it's grappling my weapon. Or something. The whole thing doesn't make a lot of sense.
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Re: Tarry Demodand

Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:39 pm

Monk fists count as both manufactured and natural weapons, so no, the monk's fists would stick too (or whatever he used as his unarmed strike). A dragon, with his claws and bite, however wouldn't. The same as if you tried to grapple him, you wouldn't be stuck to him.

"Manufactured" is anything that isn't a "natural" weapon (the ones on the chart in the bestiary), so the rock and stick would have to make saves too.

And yes, that thread is me. I hadn't remembered "universal solvent" as a cure for the demodand. It'd be free for you to have a couple, even, as they are mundane alchemical gear.
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Re: Tarry Demodand

Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:36 pm

This isn't about being the best in every single combat. It's about my character being shut down for an entire combat and there not being a way around it besides "abandon your sword, and attack it at range". The concept of being challenged implies that there's actually a way to win against it. Not just 'run away, and plink it with arrows for 10 rounds'.
There were plenty of ways to defeat it, including standing and fighting. It just would have been harder than you wanted it to be and taken longer than you thought it should. That is practically the definition of a challenge.
In all honesty, the simplest solution would be fight something else, and leave the tarry demodan to someone more equipped to deal with it. As a group of adventurers, Teamwork is supposed to be our strongest weapon after all.
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