The 5 Kingdoms Forum

So, I've been fiddling with the Advanced Race Guide. I've been waiting on it so that I could propose some official stats for some of the player races that are exclusive to our world, such as the Shivan or Firbolg. Here are my attempts. Please let me know what you think. If something seems out of place, please suggest the type of thing you'd replace it with.

Ansvar
Type: Humanoid (giant)
Size: Large
Speed: Normal Speed (30 feet)
Ability Scores: +4 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Dex, -2 Cha (Standard + Large)
Languages: Common, Giant (Any as Bonus)
Energy Resistance: Resist 5 to one of fire, cold, acid or electricity (chosen at character creation)
Natural Armor: +1 Natural Armor
Skill Bonus: Craftsman (+2 to all Craft and Profession dealing with stone or metal)
Skill Bonus: +2 bonus on Survival
Reach: 10 foot reach
Low-light vision
Elemental Vulnerability: Choose fire, cold, acid or electricity. Gain vulnerability to this element. Cannot correspond to either Energy Resistance or Elemental Summoner.

Alternate Traits
Elemental Summoner - Choose a subtype: earth, fire, water, air. When summoning a creature with this subtype, the duration lasts 2 rounds longer. Replaces Craftsman and Energy Resistance.
Rock Throwing - Deal 2d6 + 1-1/2 strength bonus with thrown rocks (special definition, not just anything you can throw). Replaces Natural Armor and Survival bonus.

Feats
Mated Pair [Combat, Teamwork]
Prerequisites: Ansvar
Benefit: Designate an ally as your mate. While your mate is alive, you gain the benefits of Paired Opportunists, Coordinated Defense and Swap Places when you are adjacent to your mate. If your mate dies, you may not designate another ally as your mate; however, you may exchange this feat for one of the three feats it emulates.
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Firbolg
Type: Humanoid (Giant)
Size: Medium
Speed: Normal (30 Feet), Climb 20
Ability Scores: +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Int
Languages: Common, Giant; Elven, Dwarven, Terran, Orcish, Goblin, (Pick two more languages)
Mountain-Born - +2 bonus on Acrobatics checks to cross narrow ledges and on saves vs fatigue and sickness
Mountaineer - Immune to altitude sickness, don't lose dex whem making climb or acrobatics checks to cross narrow or slippery surfaces
Stability - +4 to CMD against bullrush and trip when touching the ground
Stubborn - +2 bonus on will saves vs enchantment (charm) and enchantment (compulsion). Reroll a failed one of these saves 1 round later.
Low-light Vision
Darkvision
Weapon Familiarity - proficient in battle axes and all "firbolg" weapons.

Alternate Traits
Stonesinger - +1 level on powers from earth domain, earth elemental bloodline, stone mystery and spells with the [earth] descriptor. Replaces mountainborn.
Terrain Stride - Move through natural difficult terrain in mountains without penalty. Magically altered terrain affects normally. Replaces stability.
Relentless - +2 bonus on bullrush and overrun. Only applies when both you and opponent are touching the ground. Replaces stability.

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Shivan
Type - Humanoid (Shivan)
Size - Medium
Base Speed - Normal
Ability Scores - +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Cha, -2 Int
Languages - Shivan; Giant, dwarven, common, elven.
Natural Armor - +1 bonus to natural armor
Darkvision
Low-light vision

Alternate Traits
Bite - 1d8 + strength primary attack. Replaces natural armor.
Claws - 2 1d4 + strength primary attacks. Replaces natural armor.
Terrifying Roar - (Su) Once per hour, standard action. All but shivan make will save (10 + 1/2 hd + Cha mod) or shaken for 1d4 rounds. Sonic, mind-affecting effect. Replaces natural armor.
Fast and Sprinter - Increase base speed by 10. Add an additional +10 to their speed when using the charge, run or withdrawal actions. Replaces darkvision.
Plains Stalker - Perception and Stealth are class skills. +4 bonus on stealth when in plains. Replaces natural armor.

Ansvar:

I think this is an excellent representation of an Ansvar; it has the right feel. However, I'd always pictured them as being considerably stronger; as strong or stronger than an Ogre. I realize that the APG is attempting to make a balanced PC race, though, so that might not be possible. Not having access to the books, I'd wonder if they could be made stronger in some manner, even with some kind of penalty to something else?

The 'mated pair' trait is absolutely spot on.

Firbolg:

I'm not quite sure about the Firbolg. They're a tall and strong race, comfortable in the wild. I'm not sure about mountaineering and stability; I've never thought of them as being particularly deft at living in high places (they don't seem to favor a particular terrain type in the writings we have so far?). I like the 'earth connection' character of stability ... hmm.

Shivan:

Bang on; we might need to 'list out' the various subtypes in a more elaborate presentation.

Thanks for taking a crack at them.

I always thought the Ansvar and Firbolg could use a level adjustment. Like, you're an adolescent at level 1, and don't have your full size and strength yet.

Austin, I know we talked briefly about the ARG having some sort of mechanism like that in addition to the 'balanced' races?

The LA rules are loosely based on RP totals. You don't gain an LA until you spend more than 20 RP. Of the core races, the dwarf is 11 and humans are 9. Most of the 0 HD creatures from the various bestiaries are between 5 and 15. Exceptions are the drow nobles (41) and svirfneblin (24). The races above are 12, 11 and 9 (if I remember right).

At 20 RP, you have a +1 LA between levels 1 and 5. At 30 RP, you have a +2 between 1 and 5 and a +1 between 6 and 10. At 40 RP, +3 for 1-5, +2 for 6-10 and +1 for 11-15. I could easily bump the Ansvar to 20 or more points, if you wanted, but I thought it best to start conservative. The ogres in the APG (the player race version) only have a +4 strength modifier too, since a player can make that a 22 with good rolls or high point investment. The bestiary ogre has a strength of 21 (or base 17 with a +4 mod).

To add more strength (and keep the other stats the same), it'll cost a lot. To take them to a +6 modifier would bring their total to 16, +8 would be a 21. Another option, rather than just giving them more muscles, would be to drop the Vulnerability trait (this would bring the total up by 4 points). I added it in so their total would be around the right number for a player race. Rather than stronger, heartier is also an option, giving them a bonus to constitution (this would cost 4 points).

On the firbolg, I had always assumed they were rather similar to the goliaths from Forgotten Realms, hence the mountain themed abilities. Firbolg, from 2e, were sort of nice hill giants, if I'm remembering my stuff right. That's what lead to the various mountain themed abilities. There wasn't much in their wiki entry to go from, so I just sort of guessed.

Is there any ability you guys know of from the bestiaries that just screams "firbolg"? That might help me pick/design some stuff for them.

They might've altered the system considerably, but in some of the older 'reverse engineer a MM race for playing' the guideline was to subtract 10 or 11 (11 if it was an odd number) and the remainder was the race's base plus for that stat. (Assuming all bestiary races have 10 and 11 base stats). So I was interpreting a 'basic' Ogre having a racial +10 strength, meaning a basic Ansvar would have only a 14 or 15 - thus my impression of them being considerably weaker.

As I said, those guidelines may no longer apply.

I like their elemental affinities and vulnerabilities just fine. I was just wondering how tough it would be to make them stronger.

As for Firbolg; if possible, they are hardy in a different way than Dwarves. Suited to the outdoor life, living rough, and in simple conditions. (I really don't know anything about the Goliath race other than what you've told me, so the Firbolg aren't meant to resemble them) I suppose our Firbolg would be described as rough, uncouth, strong, hardy, and resilient. I don't think they'd get sick easily and they might be quite resistant to the elements. (I recall cold climate Firbolg and hot climate Firbolg, and they'd live in these places with less 'technological compensation' than Humans). They are longer in limb than humans, and probably tougher. Kind of like tall, lean Neanderthals (or the old view of what they might've been)

It's possible they might have things like:
Scent
Ferocity
Track?
Resist Elements?
Some kind of Bonus in their home terrain? (Stealth or something?)
Fast Healing?
Rage/animal fury?
Blood Frenzy?
Oversized weapons?
Resistance to disease?
Resistance to poison?
Resistance to mind-affecting magic, perhaps?

Well, you're also comparing a CR 1/2, 0 HD creature to a CR 3, 4 HD creature. For a better comparison, take a 4 HD Ansvar fighter. By taking PC class, he gets the elite array, and puts his 15 in Strength. With his +4 racial, he starts at a 19. He then puts his +1 at level 4 into Strength giving him a 20. Same +5 modifier. He's a CR 3, 4 HD Ansvar at this point, and is just as good as the ogre at hitting and damaging, plus he gets twice as many feats and has some class abilities (like weapons, armor, fear saves). He'll also likely have better mental stats, giving him more skills and better saves.

Give this guy a point-buy or stat array that lets him start with a 16 (the average pre-racial score for prime stats in point buy games) and he's even with the ogre's strength. Let him get an 18, and he's surpassed it. You are correct about subtracting 10 or 11 from the score to get the racial modifier, but to get a 0 HD version, you have to factor in level bumps and stating arrays.

On Firbolg, I wanted to try rather hard to not just make them "taller, faster dwarves". Here are FR goliaths. I didn't assume the weird lithoderms or baldness, instead assuming they were actually ruddy and hairy, much like the Neanderthals you mentioned.

Of the characteristics you listed, oversized weapons is the only one that can't really be done. The rest (in one form or another) can happen. Some are pretty expensive though.

Scent - As the universal monster rule 4 RP
Ferocity - As the universal monster rule for 4 RP or as the half-orc's "orc ferocity" for 2 RP
Track - since everyone can track by using survival, +2 survival covers this for 2 RP, or they can get Skill Focus (Survival) hard-coded in for 2 RP.
Resist Elements - to actually reduce elemental damage by 5 is 1 RP, to avoid the effects of environmental dangers is 2 RP (but comes with lots of other small things)
Situational terrain stuff - +4 stealth is 1 RP, something like dwarves's stonecunning is also 1 RP, terrain-based magic affinity is 2 RP, moving through difficult terrain for one terrain region is 1 RP
Fast Healing - all of them work like the mephit's fast healing and requires a trigger and has a limit of 2 hp per level per day, costs 3 RP. Normal fast healing starts at FH 1 for 6 points and can be purchased multiple times, each time increasing the base cost of the ability by 1 (FH 2 is 13 points, FH 3 is 21 points, etc.)
Rage/animal fury - Maybe "cornered fury"? When at half hit point and 30+ feet from nearest conscious ally, +2 to melee attack rolls and AC. 4 RP
Blood fury - blood rage 2 RP
Resist disease/poison/mind-affecting - Hardy 3 RP, "healthy" (+4 fort against disease and poison) 2 RP, "plagueborn" (+2 saves vs disease, ingested poison, nausea, sickened) 1 RP, "poison resistance" (bonus = HD vs poison) 3 RP, "resistant" (+2 vs poisons and mind-affecting) 2 RP, "stubborn" (listed above) 2 RP

Any of those seem better?

Ahh, excellent on the Ansvar. That makes sense. I think they're fine as they stand then.


I'd like to hear what Mark and Clay think of the Firbolg options - they've both played Firbolg in the past. Mark seems to have an affinity for them. (other people probably have as well, but I remember Cam and Fir clearly as Firbolg)

I'm not sure how the points costs would balance, but for my part, I prefer:

Ferocity (full on if possible, orc version if necessary)
Resist Elements (resist environmental dangers)
Perhaps 'close to nature' which would give them +4 Stealth and Move through difficult terrain in their 'home' terrain?
Any of the resistances would probably work. I like 'resistant' myself, but any of the others might do as well.

I posted the Mated Pair feat over on the Paizo boards and I got a little feedback. Here is the adjusted version, which is a bit more balanced.

Mated Pair [Combat, Teamwork]
Prerequisites: Ansvar
Benefit: Designate an ally as your mate. While your mate is alive, you gain the access to Paired Opportunists, Coordinated Defense and Swap Places when you are adjacent to your mate. On your turn, as a free action, you may choose to gain the benefits of one of the three feats. This choice remains and cannot be changed until your next turn. If your mate dies, you may not designate another ally as your mate; however, you may exchange this feat for one of the three feats it emulates.

Effectively, it limits you to using only one of the three feats per round, but you get to choose which one each round. So you can't use Swap Places and Coordinated Defense in the same round.

I feel like the first sentence should say 'Designate an ally as your mate at the time you acquire the feat' or something similar to keep powergamers from naming a new mate every round

Good point...

Mated Pair [Combat, Teamwork]
Prerequisites: Ansvar
Benefit: When you take this feat, designate an ally as your mate. While your mate is alive, you gain the access to Paired Opportunists, Coordinated Defense and Swap Places. On your turn, as a free action, you may choose to gain the benefits of one of the three feats. This choice remains and cannot be changed until your next turn. Your mate is treated as if they possessed the same teamwork feats as you for the purpose of determining whether you receives a bonus from this feat. Your mate does not receive any bonuses from these feats unless they actually possess the feats themselves. Your mate's positioning and actions must still meet the prerequisites listed in the teamwork feat for you to receive the listed bonus.
Special: If your mate dies, you may not designate another ally as your mate; however, you may exchange this feat for one of the three feats it emulates.

Added that and cleaned up the wording (stolen from the inquisitor's Solo Tactics ability) to make it clear that you get to use those feats when you are adjacent to your mate, even if they don't have this feat or any of the three feats it emulates.

Taking another stab at building the firbolg. Based on lots of comments, it seems that swapping the mountain stuff for plains stuff would fit pre-established canon. Let me know if this fits better.

Firbolg
Type: Humanoid (Firbolg, Giant) (0 RP)
Size: Medium (0 RP)
Speed: Normal (30 Feet) (0 RP)
Ability Scores: +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Int (0 RP)
Languages: Common, Giant; Elven, Dwarven, Terran, Orcish, Goblin, (Pick two more languages) (0 RP)
Stability - +4 to CMD against bullrush and overrun while on the ground. (1 RP)
Resistant - +2 racial bonus on saving throws against mind-affecting effects and poison. (2 RP)
Low-light Vision (1 RP)
Scent (4 RP)
Weapon Familiarity - proficient in battle axes and all "firbolg" weapons. (1 RP)

Alternate Traits
Terrain Stride - Move through natural difficult terrain in plains without penalty. Magically altered terrain affects normally. Replaces stability.
Relentless - +2 bonus to CMB on bullrush and overrun. Replaces resistant.
Static Bonus Feat - Gain Die Hard as a bonus feat (without meeting the prerequisites). Replaces resistant.
Sky Sentinel - gain a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls, a +2 dodge bonus to AC, and a +2 bonus on Perception checks against flying creatures. In addition, enemies on higher ground gain no attack roll bonus against members of this race. Replaces stability and resistant.