Discussion about the 5 Kingdoms

 
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KnightFall
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Questions and Clarifications

Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:00 am

I decided to create this topic for more general things that might come up. It might make some things easier to find than having to read all the entries.

My question is this. How many jumpgates are most of us looking at having? For some reason I was originally thinking 1 gate per system but as I think about this it doesn't make sense, especially in a high traffic area. Now I'm thinking closer to 3-5 in the Confed's primary systems and 1-2 in what I'm considering the secondary systems.
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Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:57 am

Good question....

The Acai have very few. Part of the reason behind this is that they have finally had to be responsible for helping to build their since the Uhlani really didn't want much to do with the Acai.

So probably 3 in Acai Major and 2 in Acai Minor. Only 1 in Cuumfor and 1 in Eth. Eth is quickly becoming the next major planet in the Acai territories. They are building another jump point there but don't plan on having this one done for another five to ten years. Plus they are building a ship yard and a defense fleet to protect the planet and its resources.
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Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:04 am

Since the Agnatian System is friggin' huge, it'll probably have quite a few. I imagine the Dorthinian system may have three, and the Gertrudian system has just one.
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Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:53 pm

We decided that jumpgates are only going to be on the outskirts of a system, right? What about LaGrange (A haw, haw, haw, haw, a haw) points? I imagined there would be one where Kera and Teg revolve around one another. If it's just on the outskirts of the system, then the Agnatian system would be at a severe disadvantage. What about the LaGrange (They gotta lotta nice girls) point of a gas giant?

What if the Kerakin had a higher TL in their heyday that allowed them to build a more accessible type of Jumpgate, but now in their 'dark ages', they are struggling to keep them running?
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Wolfgod
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Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:11 pm

Most places that have a jumpgate will probably only have a single gate. They're pretty darned expensive and time consuming to build. The exception to the single-gate rule would be star systems with a) LOTS of traffic, b) Military-only gates (not really necessary if you have lots of ships with Jump Engines, though), or c) Systems that have had multiple owners, who each built their own gate for whatever reason. (some of the old gates might not work). Obviously poor star nations would have only a single gate (if that) while wealthy ones might be able to build plenty. If you consider that ships can move in groups through jump points, and that ships of size class Large and larger can have their own Jump engines, the need for multiple gates lessens. Gates are mainly for civilian traffic and small craft.

We had discussed Jumpgates being located at the edges of solar systems. I peronally don't much care where we put them, so long as they're significant distances from celestial bodies. LaGrange points would be fine with me. Greg, maybe we should poll that?

Remember most military ships and large craft will be able to open their own jump point, and probably deeper in a gravity well than a Jumpgate could be built. So if your fleet doesn't have Jump Engines (like perhaps Shawn's) you might build more gates. (also, the idea of fortifying gates only works if your opponents lack Jump engines of their own) The Uhlani probably have one per system, because anything serious is going to Jump under its own power, and won't need the gate.
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KnightFall
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Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:48 pm

My vote is for the edge of the system. The thing I don't like is that a ship could come out on top of a planet, whether it be from a gate or jumpengines. Lagrange points seem way too close to me. A ship could could pop in, launch a planetary bombardment and jump out before anyone could react. I also think that the same "hyperspace edge" be present for both gates and jump engines. I don't think engines should be any more powerful than the gates, gates are simply a type of freestanding engine that creates a point for smaller ships.

In the Confed we have built a lot of gates to facilitate trade between both the Confed itself and other races. Some of our gates will probably be military only. I think someone mentioned that you set up to defend the way you would likely attack. Since most of our ships don't have jump engines we would use jumpgates to attack, so we defend the same way. We're setting up our gates at the "cardinal points" of the system elliptical. Even if someone jumps in halfway between gates or above or below the elliptical we would be in a position to locate them and plot an intercept. In addition to the Watchtower system the Confed generally has 100-200 other military craft in any given system.

If we decide to change things I'll definately be rethinking and rearranging some of my system set up.
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Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:56 pm

LaGrange points aren't exactly 'close'. Sol-Earth L1 & L2 are somewhat further out than the moon. (I might be reading this wrong, but 1,500k km away vs 385k for the moon) L3 is on the opposite side of the Sun, a little further out that Earth's orbit. L4 and L5 are leading and trailing 'Trojan' points ahead and behind on our orbit ... sixty degrees ahead and behind. Not at all close.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrangian_point

I'm OK with Jumpgates at the L-points, and Jump Engines being able to get in a little closer (Jumpgates being built at 'safest' points, while military jump engines might be able to push a few thousand kilometers closer).
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Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:16 pm

I guess I was misunderstanding the ability of the jump gates and or the size of capital ships that have their own Jump drives.

Are we talking about something the size of a Corvette or larger having a jump engine?

If so, then I will likely have 1 in each system.

I think the gates should be above or on the outside edge of the system. Also It think there should be a problem with jumping into a system. For example if you are jumping into a system during war time you might risk going in and having your ship collide with another ship already occupying the space you are about to enter just beyond your jump point.

Otherwise you risk collisions and most people would rather enter outside the system. Larger ships might have to appear further outside of the system because of gravity sheer or something along those lines.

Smaller ships could appear closer to the system since their mass is less. Or something like that...

Just some thoughts..
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Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:26 pm

After reviewing that I can easily see jumpgates at L3 and L4. The idea of a a jumpgate being in the opposite orbit of the planet at L5 almost seems a little funny. That might be a popular place for ships with jump engines to come in at. I could easily arange my current set up with general traffic jumpgates at the trojan points and restricted military jumpgates at L1 and L2.

The main problem I see is that every planet would have different distances. Also it mentions how gas giants would have their own LG points but then moons around a gas giant would also create LG points. I imagine we can come up with some standardization. Maybe one set for planets in their own orbit and one set for moons orbiting gas giants. We may also want to adjust the speeds on ships depending on what we do.
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Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:36 pm

I just saw Nick's post. Dustin will be able to clarify further but I don't think something the size of a corvette is going to be big enough for jump engines. I got the impression that bombers, corvettes, gunboats are probably looking at 250-500 ton range. Single man fighters 100-200 tons. He mentioned doing a rough design of a Babylon 5 carrier and it came out around 50,000 tons. That's what I would personally view as being close to a large ship. I'm designing carriers to carry 25 fighters and not planning on them having jump engines.
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Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:10 pm

I agree with Shawn from the game standpoint, I'd also rather have the Jump points far away from any populated planets. But, that poses a problem for me with my friggin' huge Agnatian system. What if they could be on the L-points of a gas giant, so their relatively convenient, but not on the L-points of a inhabited planet? Maybe the jump process ionizes water on the surface, or needs a huge pull to offset the 'kick' of the jumping process or something.
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Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:12 pm

I would have to look it up but I don't think you will have any stable Lagrange points on any planet that has more then one moon. Unless the moons orbit is synchronized somehow.

If the orbits are different then the second moon would alter the gravity inside all of the L points as it went by. Perhaps too little to make a difference but it would change things some.

Interesting stuff. As Shawn mentioned the Trojan L points would be the most stable. (in front and behind the astronomical object.)
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Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:30 pm

The Wikipedia article Dustin linked to mentions Jupiter-Jovian moon LG points and Saturn-Saturnian moon LG points. That makes some sense to me because Saturn and Jupiter are more like mini-systems. There is actually enough space between some of the moons that they create LG points the same way Earth or Jupiter does with the Sun.
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Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:57 pm

Wow, I leave for 90 minutes and people have a discussion without me. ;)

OK, first things first.

We're looking at only having Jump Engines on ship of size class Large or higher. Right now, that's 5,000 tons or better - about the size of a small destroyer, (That's the lower limit of 'Capital' class in Star Wars. About the size of a Corellian Corvette ... over 100m long ish) We could also include a restriction by Tech ... like Tech 6 cultures have to be Huge or larger, Tech 7 Large or larger, etc. That seems needlessly complex to me, but I offer the idea.

I'm thinking we'd only use Star L-points - points between stars and major planets. (not Pluto planets).

L1 is sunward, L2 is on the far side of the planet. L3 is opposite side of the star, L4 is leading (I think) Trojan and L5 trailing Trojan. The L4 and L5 points (I believe) aren't as stable as the others; (things caught in them tend to take up kidney-shaped orbits rather than just hanging around) L1 and L2 being the most stable.

Any planet will create L-points with its star(s). Yes, every planet and solar system would have hordes of L-points at different distances, modified by moons, binary stars, etc. Most moons don't have enough mass to affect a planet-star L-point ... they're just too small. (assuming the planet in question is relatively large, anyways). More on that later.

The risk of one 1 km long starship colliding with another in the volume of space represented by an entire solar system is miniscule. Maybe if you were all jumping in together near a planet ... otherwise, it's no big threat.

Whew.

Suggestions for Jump Gate locations:

Star-close: I have to credit my Dad for this idea. We just drove up to Fayetteville, and he and I were discussion this sci-fi problem. He mentioned that if Jumpgates take a lot of power, that locating them deep *in* the system might be a good idea. Lots of easy, cheap, powerful solar. Same for Jump engines ... it's easier to exit hyperspace in a deep, deep gravity well than in 'normal' space. Turns the normal jump tech idea on its head. I thought it was interesting so I'll pass it on.

System Edge: The already-discussed system-edge idea. The thought being that beyond your last major planet's orbit, there's less trash to run into, little traffic, and it's easier to enter/exit hyperspace well away from all the gravity wells.

Planetary L-point (L1): Jumpgates at (major) planetary L-points; the L1 point has uninterrupted solar exposure; this might be a good standard for the L-point jumpgate idea. However, Greg has to make a program to figure distances for the math-challenged like me. :)

Gas Giant L-point: This is my favorite. Considering that it appears that any system that's going to have habitable worlds needs a gas giant 'trash collector' further out in the system to protect it, maybe only the Lagrange points between something with the mass of a gas giant and a star are large enough/stable enough/far enough from unshielded people. Once again I'd favor the L1 point though there's no reason you couldn't use them all. They only thing they'd be 'close' to would be moons; even then the L-point is likely to be what, five times as far away from the giant as its moons? (That's a rough guess, I know it has to do with complicated math concerning the mass of the star and the planet and so forth, but I'm on vacation). That's a good long way from most everything.
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Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:06 pm

Sssooooooo, if we have 2 gas giants in a system (Jupiter and Saturn) The L1 point of either would be the best area for a jumpgate. It would face the sun for energy and be the most stable point.

Maybe L1 of gas giants is where jumpgates are. The other L points of gas giants are the safe areas for ships with jump engines? It would also put a natural limitation on things. The number of gas giants in a system starts to determine the number of jumpgates.
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Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:08 pm

I'd be fine with that. We could determine a mass limit for stellar objects that are large enough to creat L-Points that allow (safe) creation of Jump points. Otherwise, you're shooting for the system edge.

L1 point of a Gas Giant would be the 'sweet spot' for Jumpgates. The other L-points will work, but L1 is the best and easiest to nav to and from.
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Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:16 pm

Well, I just want to blame Greg for this whole debate. If it wasn't for his gianormous system none of this would be needed. :lol:

That said I think we've developed a good idea of how to do things. I'll have to do some work on the make up of my systems. I hadn't set any hard numbers concerning planets or star sizes yet.
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Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:15 pm

I wonder if higher TLs could harness gravitational pulls, or ionic displacement off of the Gas Giant, or some other nonsense as an alternative energy source to jump gates.

Also, something I planned on with the ill-fated d20F game that I ran, is that Jump Gates take time to recycle. Maybe it's a shorter time by size, proximity to the power source, or TLs.
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Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:31 am

Babylon 5 had a similar thing with jump engines. It took several minutes for them to recharge after having made a jump. And of course in Battletech it took like a week to recharge engines.
It suddenly occurred to me just how absurd this scene was: a guy wearing a suit of armor, standing next to an undead king, both hunched over the controls of a classic arcade game.
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Space stations, jumpgates and jumppoints, oh my

Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:04 pm

New Topic

Has anyone figured out if we can do Legrange points on Astrosynth yet? I've tried adding some space stations but I'm always required to put in an orbit. I didn't spend much time on it last night, just occurred to me that I have all these space stations and fleets in the Confed and should start placing them.
It suddenly occurred to me just how absurd this scene was: a guy wearing a suit of armor, standing next to an undead king, both hunched over the controls of a classic arcade game.
-Ready Player One
 
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Wolfgod
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Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:34 pm

Nope. There's a formula to figure out the distance ... but it's math. I don't like math. I had a bad experience with math as a child.

I've just been putting the stations in orbit and not worrying about it. :)
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KnightFall
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Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:50 am

Ok, cool.
It suddenly occurred to me just how absurd this scene was: a guy wearing a suit of armor, standing next to an undead king, both hunched over the controls of a classic arcade game.
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